Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Psychotherapy with Saj Razvi



On this episode of the Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast, Dr. Joe Flanders interviews Saj Razvi. Saj is the Director of Education at the Psychedelic Somatic Institute (PSI) and one of the primary developers of the Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Psychotherapy (PSIP) modality. He is a psychotherapist and former clinical researcher in the MAPS Phase 2 trial of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. He is faculty at Mind Medicine Australia and taught PTSD studies at the University of Denver. Learn more about Saj on the PSI website.

(3:52) Saj's background
(6:50) The power of cannabis to help with the psychotherapy process
(9:00) Psychedelic therapy is complex and an art form
(13:25) The trauma roots of treatment-resistant mental health conditions
(15:39) PSIP vs insight-oriented therapies
(24:18) Psychedelics and working at the somatic level
(27:55) White paper on PSIP
(29:24) The default mod network and entropic brain
(36:38) How the nervous system self-corrects the effects of trauma through a 5-stage defense cascade
(53:30) Avoidance and shame
(57:30) Selective inhibition
(01:08:44) Inside and outside the window of tolerance
(01:12:20) Working with trauma is about relationship/attachment
(01:16:45) Joe's experience with PSIP
(01:26:25) Adaptive vs maladaptive responses to stress
(01:36:00) Cannabis and working with dissociation in trauma therapy
(01:43:35) "Cracking open" stuckness in psychedelic therapy
(01:46:20) Cannabis vs ketamine

Learn more about our podcast at
Learn more about Numinus at
Follow us on Instagram:

Disclaimer: The content of this podcast does not constitute medical advice or mental health treatment. Consult with a medical/mental health professional if you believe you are in need of mental health treatment.

Would you like to be a guest
on our podcast?

Enter your info and we'll reach out to you asap.


Would you like to be a guest on our podcast?

By signing up you consent to the Privacy Policy & Terms of Use.
Call us toll-free 1-833-NUMINUS (686-4687)
crosschevron-down linkedin facebook pinterest youtube rss twitter instagram facebook-blank rss-blank linkedin-blank pinterest youtube twitter instagram